S1 EP05 - Dark Matter Matters to KeShawn Ivory
Kashif
Hey everyone, welcome to Who's Gonna Be There, a podcast by two extroverts for the right price. My name is Kashif.
Blake
That's a high price for me. My name is Blake.
Kashif
And we're so excited to talk about dark matter and dark energy and all things space with KeShawn Ivory. So stay tuned.
Kashif
INTRO THEME So before we begin, let's just check in. How are you doing, Blake?
Blake
I'm a little tired. Actually, a little tired is an understatement. I am exhausted in ways hitherto unknown to me. This is the hardest that I've ever worked. So like I mentioned last episode, we're in the middle of preseason right now with the football team. And so we've had two joint practices in different cities in a row. So we started in Tampa and now we're outside of Atlanta at the Falcons training facility. both places have been very hot so practices have been very sweaty and the days have been very long and my body's worn out i'm nursing probably multiple repetitive motion injuries in both arms
Kashif
Medial epicondylitis
Blake
That's one of them
Kashif
Okay listeners, i've been saying that to blake non-stop for the past like couple of weeks
Blake
More commonly known as golfer's elbow but you can also get it by massaging and not just golfing but this is day seven of the trip you know when i get this tired i think what tends to happen is I feel a little bit more acutely just the fact that i am a cog in a big old capitalist machine and i am simultaneously like expendable but also like necessary for the machine. So like i think what that does for me is it breaks down like my emotional fortitude as well and so I can tell when i'm getting burnt out because like my trains of thought just start becoming negative. And so i think just like there's so much going on right now i mean there's always so much going on but like i think my ability to compartmentalize the monstrosities of the world weakens when my body's weak. And so I'm sure that my coworkers are like really sick of hearing me talk about Gaza and Sudan and Congo and the Supreme Court and Washington, D.C. But like it's either I like rant about those to the people nearest me or I break down crying about them, you know. But we are returning home on Saturday. We have a game on Friday night. And so I'll be able to rest a little bit then obviously we'll still like keep working every day after but i'll get to sleep in my own bed and see my dog and do some other things that uh will help me get back to normal during football season so that's me what's going on with you
Kashif
Yeah oh that's that is a lot um well as we were recording i'm also in atlanta but uh within the perimeter so to speak
Blake
Separated by like 50 miles or so.
Kashif
Yeah. Uh, and I am back here because I, uh, had to redo my, uh, sperm donation at Emory. Unfortunately they did not do, uh, one of the tests that's a part of the FDA sort of screening. So the FDA wouldn't clear the previous, uh, three collections. So now I have to do three more. Yeah, so I'm back in Atlanta. I'm pretty tired. I have been navigating some mental health challenges that I'll probably talk about in the future, but it's really hard right now to be hopeful. And I think I also feel a measure of guilt with negative thinking. Like I'm thinking about every now and again, I feel like I rise above the sort of waterline and I am thinking about all the train of thoughts that I've been having. And then I feel like, damn, that's so selfish. You should be thinking about Gaza and all of the other things that are going on in the world and whatever it is, they just exist in the same space. But I feel like these days I'm trying to do the best I can to be hopeful. And today, I'm going to take a walk in the sunshine and to maybe making new connections today. Yeah, we're just doing the best we can. Yeah, it just feels like there's a lot going on in our reality. But speaking of that, we are going to be talking today about space. And before we get to our conversation with Keyshawn, one of the things I love about our friendship is that you could throw any topic up on the board and you and I would approach it so differently.
Blake
Yeah.
Kashif
So, space. When you think of space, what comes to mind? What's your relationship to space?
Blake
I think my relationship to space is one that is like very conceptual and theoretical and kind of mystical. When I was a kid, like a lot of little boys, I became interested in space and wanted to be an astronaut at some point, I'm sure, because I do remember asking my parents if I could go to space camp. And that was well outside of my parents' means. But I think I also learned whether it was space camp or whether it was Boy Scouts or whatever, if there was something that I recognized was kind of outside of our family's means, I found a way to turn that interest off. And so I think for like a lot of my childhood, space was one of those things that I kind of sidelined in my own brain and kept a distant interest in. But, you know, as time would go on, it was sort of like if I got into any of the details about space, like how many moons Jupiter had or, you know, why Neptune was blue or stuff like that, I would lose interest. But what fascinated me about space and I think the sustaining interest in space was that it presented to me like this big, like expansive, mysterious place. And I was a very, very like curious, wide-eyed little kid. Like I was interested in spirituality when my parents were non-religious. And so I think for me, like space was the place where like the gods lived. And it represented this wild, unknowable frontier. And if I pressed into it, there would be some sort of magic out there. And I think in some ways I still have that conception of space, which is why I'm excited to talk about dark matter today because dark matter kind of seems like that thing. But does that make sense?
Kashif
It does make sense. And this is why I love to do this because not how I would have answered that question at all. Okay, I'm fascinated by the fact that you wanted to go to space camp.
Blake
Yeah.
Kashif
And what was space camp? I don't think I've ever heard of that.
Blake
I just saw a commercial and I don't remember the details. There were just like a bunch of little kids dressed up as astronauts doing these like anti-gravity simulations and pressing a bunch of buttons on some like rocket ship panel. And I was like, I want to do that. I want to pretend to be an astronaut for a weekend or whatever. And I think it was somewhere in like I don't know Alabama or Arkansas or I don't I don't remember but my parents were like absolutely not.
Kashif
Maybe it was in Alabama like in Huntsville at the NASA.
Blake
It might have been.
Kashif
But it's really funny that you wanted to go to space camp and did your parents say do you have space camp money?
Blake
Exactly.
Kashif
Do you have McDonald's money? Okay so when I think of space I in terms of my earliest relationships I mean growing up as you know in the Christian Pentecostal tradition, space is heaven. But I think space more occupied a sort of cultural fashion place for me. So I think about Patti LaBelle and her group LaBelle. And like in the 70s, when they were recording Lady Marmalade and that particular album, everywhere they went, they were in sort of space fashion outfits that were very metallic, which is fascinating because later, I think in 2002, she ends up recording the NASA dedication song Way Up There, which is a song that I love. But I think that trajectory is curious. And then, of course, in 2003, we have the space shuttle, the Columbia disaster. And she goes back and performs it live. But yeah, way up there is an early memory for me because in vocal ensemble in middle school, we sang that song. And actually, I was upset because it was a little white boy with an earring who got the lead part, not me. And I was like, this is a Black song. This is supposed to have soul.
Blake
And he didn't?
Kashif
I think I'm upset because he kind of did. And that made me more like peeved about it. I was like, you're stealing from us. So there's that. I also think about like moon boots. Those came back when I was a teenager, came back into style and they had been in style in the 70s. And those like puffy sort of shoes, boots thingies that are very impractical. I think about Michael Jackson and the moonwalk.
Blake
The moonwalk, yeah.
Kashif
Which we did in school a lot, but most of the kids were just walking backwards. Those are the things that I think come to mind for me when I think about space. I was never fascinated with the sort of science of the planets as much as maybe the mystique of the galaxy and a sense of like being outside of time. And I don't know, it seemed like a place where everything was quiet. And in the noise of my kid life, and when I say the noise, I mean whether it was being bullied or being around grownups who didn't necessarily understand me, space seemed like a place of rest. And I don't know.
Blake
Like sensory deprivation?
Kashif
Yeah, like the float tank.
Blake
Yeah.
Kashif
Like just being suspended in time and having, being away from gravity, but like all of that stellar goodness, like buoying you. It just, it seems like such an alluring idea. And it did then. I didn't have the language for it. But so, Blake, why don't you tell us, just based on your understanding, what is dark matter?
Blake
Oh, God. I am probably going to botch this. From what i understand dark matter is well dark matter and dark energy is like most of what the universe is filled with but light doesn't interact with it so it's invisible but it is gravitational matter so like it has gravity and it affects how other things with gravity move. I think i got that right KeShawn might come in yeah like that's not it but that's what i understand dark matter to be—is that like it it is kind of this like filler like this mysterious force that's kind of holding the universe together but we don't exactly know what its parts are or how to identify it or how to measure it because we don't necessarily have the tools necessary to be able to measure dark matter or gravity in the same way that we can like measure you know light on a like a spectrum. That's what i understand dark matter to be but KeShawn, in addition to being an expert on actual dark matter, it's my understanding that he spends a lot of time in his professional career discussing how dark matter can be used as a metaphor for other areas of life. And in my line of work as a body worker, that made me think of fascia. Fascia as a kind of anatomical dark matter. For those that don't know what fascia is, it is a kind of connective tissue that is everywhere in our bodies. It makes up a, I don't know if it's a majority, but a definitely substantial volume of who we are as people. It's just this kind of web of connective tissue that wraps around every muscle and wraps around every organ. It's underneath our skin. It's just kind of everywhere. And scientists throughout human history have mostly overlooked fascia. It's kind of the stuff that you in cadaver labs cut away to get to the quote unquote important parts like the muscles and the organs. And it's only been very recently that we started to wonder, oh, what function and what purpose does fascia actually play in the body. And there are a lot of interesting theories along those lines that we still don't know a whole lot about, which is very similar in my brain to how dark matter exists. If dark matter is this mysterious gravitational scaffolding that sort of, in many ways, holds the universe together, then fascia is this mysterious tissue scaffolding that in many ways holds our bodies together.
Kashif
Yeah, I think that the most interesting part about it for me, and KeShawn is going to probably expand both of our understandings in just a few, but dark matter as a metaphor for Black folks and race and racism oppression, at some point in more recent history, some people decided to sort of claim that. I think it was both Black folks, whether it was writers or physicists, decided to claim dark matter as a metaphor for Blackness. And also then, I think white physicists were sort of naming or identifying Black folks with dark matter. But it is this idea that we are the invisible builders of society. And we have gravity in the sense that all of the structures are resting on us. And I think especially in the global West, especially in America, I think that idea resonates. I mean, even, you know, the dark continent, Africa, this idea of the sort of economies of the world having been pulled from African resources. It is an idea. And some folks have made a home in that. There's Dr. Jacqueline Samuel, who really does, has a great article that we'll link in the show notes. But she identifies dark matter as soul, as a sort of thread that ties all Black folks together. And when we lose our dark matter, it creates a metaphysical catastrophe. So I think it's her way of talking about the hood and war and violence in urban environments. And my language around that is a little bit dated, but she's particularly talking about an experience, I think, really in the 80s and 90s, especially after the crack epidemic and things like that and the ways in which that broke up Black urban communities. So that idea was thought-provoking. But then on the other hand, we have astrophysicists like Dr. Chandra Preshod Weinstein, who says, no, we are not dark matter. Black folks are luminous matter. And if we call ourselves dark matter, we are essentially putting ourselves in danger because then the police are looking at black boys as these sort of like ineffable, amorphous figures that it's like, oh, I can't quite make him out. I thought it was a gun. So according to her, we need to call ourselves luminous matter, that we are visible, that our accomplishments and our contributions are known. And we need to sort of reinforce that idea. So there's a strange sort of tension there. And I think both of those are rooted in older traditions, right? So dark matter, we find that in, if you think about Invisible Man, Ralph Waldo Ellison, and the ways in which his protagonist is literally is called Invisible Man. But at the beginning of the novel, we see him, he's living underground, and we see him, he comes above ground. We see him, we don't see him, but we know that he comes above ground. And as he is somewhere in an urban environment, and he intentionally punches or bumps a man who's walking by and who has no idea what has just happened to him. And it's sort of like, if you don't see me, you're going to feel me. There's a sort of tradition of examining invisibility later in the novel when Invisible Man essentially reveals what is supposed to be the invisible underbelly of Black culture to a white person. And he's essentially then cast out of the empire because of what he's done that's supposed to be invisible. So there's a lot of layers to it, to that tradition. Luminous Matter, I would argue, it rings a little respectable to me. And that's just sort of my take on it. And I'm really curious to hear what Keyshawn is going to say. All right, we're going to take a short break and we'll be right back. The first time a writer told me about The Porch, I thought he was talking about literary people sitting on a veranda with glasses of sweet tea. Turns out I was only kind of wrong. The Porch is a Nashville-based writers' collective that offers workshops for poets and writers of all levels, readings from high-profile authors, and yes, outdoor literary events. My Porch journey started in 2018 with a class called Foundations of Fiction, and I've been part of the community ever since. Whether it's sitting within a few feet of Kiese Lehmann or toasting to a fellow member's book contract, The Porch keeps me connected. With community programs like Immigrants Write and Write for Good, The Porch is present where it counts in times like these. Financial assistance and scholarships are available to help you meet your writing goals. View workshop offerings and chip away at your writer's block by visiting www.porchtennessee.org or on social media at Porch TN. And we are back. We're here with KeShawn Ivory. And KeShawn is a PhD candidate in astrophysics at Vanderbilt University, where he works on identifying galaxy groups in dark matter halos via simulations of large-scale structure. He is also events director for an organization called Black in Astro. His passion lies in astronomy education and planetariums. And in his free time, he loves to sing. I know he has covers on the internet. Cook, I did see the focaccia bread that you made the other day, which was very delicious. It looked very delicious. And he also loves to change his hair color. So we, yeah, we love that. But welcome, KeShawn.
KeShawn
Thanks for having me. Really excited to be here.
Kashif
Yeah, likewise.
Blake
KeShawn, we're sort of focusing on dark matter today because both of us are very interested in it. I know that that's like a large part of what you talk about, what you teach about, what you think about all the time. So before we like launch into what dark matter is exactly, because we've like tried to define it already and probably fallen short. So we need you to come in and correct us. But first I want to hear just like what captured your interest about this subject?
KeShawn
Yeah, that's a really good question. Okay. So when you're doing astrophysics in school, there's going to come a time where you learn about dark matter because it's something that fits into the current cosmology that we have as a field, just as astronomers, it's something that fits into our picture of the universe. And so we all learn about it. But what captured my sort of imagination was its value, not just scientifically, but almost kind of like metaphorically, because essentially we're using the dark in it's got it has two meanings kind of dark in the sense of it's matter that doesn't produce or interact with light in ways that we recognize but also dark kind of in the way that we say like dark ages where we kind of don't know what was going on it's a bit like that too. We don't know what it's made of we don't know it's kind of a stand-in it's like a just like a place holder for something that we don't quite understand. And I really, really like that idea. And then I came to really just be more enamored with the notion of dark matter when I figured out that other fields are using it for its metaphorical value. They're using it as stand-ins for things that they know are there, but they can't quite put a finger on what it is. And we can get more into that, but I'll give an example of like biology, biological dark matter. They'll use that term to refer to like microbes that serve some kind of function, but they don't know what, and they can't really maintain them in the lab. So they can't study them directly. And that's a lot like our astrophysical dark matter or like parts of genetic material that do something and they don't know what the something is. And so I just thought there was so much value in that that I ended up developing an entire course based off of interdisciplinary sort of dark matter. So to get to then the heart of like, what exactly is it astrophysically? It's just that, right? It's like, it's stuff out there that as astronomers, we infer its existence via gravitational interaction. We look at the way that it makes other things move. We look at the way that light sort of bends around it. We call that gravitational lensing. And so it's got all these effects, but we can't see it directly. And so it's dark, both in the sense of not interacting with light in familiar ways and also being unbeknownst to us in terms of its true nature, if that makes sense.
Kashif
That kind of ties into something that we were talking about earlier in terms of thinking about metaphors. So dark matter versus luminous matter as metaphors for Black folks and racism. Have you, I mean, I'm sure you've heard of this.
KeShawn
Okay.
Kashif
So there are some tensions there, but we wanted to know your take on it. And is there a better metaphor to be found in astrophysics?
KeShawn
I don't know that there's a better one per se, but there is literature out there that tackles this very well. And this does come up in my Dark Matter class. It's one of the things that I loved to get into with my high schoolers. And I do teach this class to juniors and seniors in high school. So it's like a young group of fresh faces that I love to just indoctrinate with the woke virus.
Blake
Doing the Lord's work.
KeShawn
A sociologist, Howard Winant, has this article about race as dark matter. And it's really, really short. But his sort of take-home message, his big thesis point, is that race is like the central organizing principle of social life. In the way that gravity is this sort of invisible hand that leads us to infer dark matter. Like race kind of does the same thing functionally in society. And so when I teach this concept to my students it's a really really quick five days the Vanderbilt Summer Academy is like a really quick super deep 30 hours of instruction over five days and on the last day that's our big interdisciplinary day and so when I teach them this Winant lesson we look at a map of galaxies in the universe and the sort of large-scale structure how things are not homogenous. There's places that are preferentially full of stuff and places that are preferentially void. The places full of stuff is where galaxies in you and I form and the places that are void, well, they're empty. And then I put it right next to two maps of Nashville. One is color coded by race and ethnicity and one is color coded by income. And they see that there is structure and things are not homogenous. And just like there are forces behind why the galaxy clustering is a thing, there are forces behind why that social clustering is a thing. And Howard Winant would say that's race as dark matter. And so, yeah, I am a proponent of this interdisciplinary way of viewing things because I don't think that any one area of knowledge is truly separate from another one. And I think that if you're working in knowledge production and you're finding that what you're making only has value in one area, what are you doing? You know, so I'm all for people taking astronomy concepts and using them in other areas where they make sense.
Kashif
What would you say to folks who argue that no, Black people are not dark matter. Black folks are luminous matter.
KeShawn
Yeah.
Kashif
Yeah.
KeShawn
So I've definitely, I've heard that one in particular from a friend at the Divinity School. We kind of had a great conversation about.
Kashif
Of course, of course, of course, one of the Div folks would say that. As a Divinity librarian, yes. Absolutely. Light, darkness.
KeShawn
And I could certainly see the impetus for why someone would prefer to view Black folks as luminous matter because just historically of all of the negative associations that come with the idea of darkness, Blackness. But here's the thing: I think you have two choices. And I think they're both valid choices. I think that you can, as a Black person, you can claim the status of luminosity for yourself. There's a reclamation element to that, right? Because historically, white people were the light and the truth and correctness. And you can, as a Black person, kind of claim that for yourself. Or you can do the other thing and really kind of lean into darkness, Blackness, dark matter, and say, yeah, yeah, I am dark. And what about it, right? And I think those are both valid choices. I, as you can probably tell, tend to really favor the leaning into dark matter thing, just because as an astronomer, like so much of our energy and so many of our resources are going to studying dark matter. Like, yeah, I want to be the hot thing that everybody wants to know all about it and what's it made of and what's it doing. Like that idea is attractive to me, but I could totally see why someone would also want to be the light. I know if I asked my mother, she would say that she absolutely wants to be the light.
Kashif
Oh, my mother would say the same thing. She does not believe in darkness. My mother would be like, dark matter? No, I'm not.
KeShawn
Exactly. Exactly. I am of the, I'm the salt of the earth. Like I am of the light. I'm a child of God. Like the whole, the whole thing.
Kashif
Yep. Yep. Okay. Yeah. Same, same. Oh, that's so fascinating. Yeah.
Blake
KeShawn, somehow, like, you have answered pretty much all of my questions in just that little bit. I don't know how you possibly did that.
KeShawn
I'm a teacher. I'm an educator.
Blake
That's true. But also, you must be a psychic as well. So, I think it sounds like you spend a lot of time thinking about the more theoretical side of dark matter. What's your favorite, like, pet theory about dark matter? And you can take that however you want it. You know, like what dark matter is exactly? Or what's your kind of like favorite, you know, analogy or metaphor that people are using dark matter to explain right now?
KeShawn
Yeah. Okay. So I'll go with the kind of more like boring science-y one first, which is my actual favorite like dark matter candidate. So this is something we address in my class as well. Day four of the class is when we do dark matter candidates. So things that dark matter could be made of and then searches. So the cool stuff people are building to look for those particles, which I then segue into a discussion about where we build telescopes and astro-colonialism and whatnot. Because like I said, woke mind virus. But my preferred candidate, I really, really like the idea that dark matter could be just a different version of something that is kind of already familiar to us. So I'll give an example. There is this kind of particle called a neutrino. And neutrinos are associated particularly with nuclear reactions. So they're flying out of the sun's core because the sun is always doing nuclear fusion. That's how it powers itself and keeps us alive and all of that. And we have built neutrino detectors. There's a big one called Ice Cube that is called that because it's literally in Antarctica, like under the ice. And there is an idea that there could be a new, never-before-seen kind of neutrino called a sterile neutrino. And that maybe could be a dark matter candidate. So ideas like that, that it's like a different form of something that's kind of familiar, as opposed to a completely new particle, the likes of which we've never seen. That's very fun and exciting for me to think about. So there's reasons why that's not the favorite model, but I think it's fun. And then in terms of my favorite metaphorical twist, you know, of the ones that we cover in my class, I give them a final project, which is they break off into groups. Actually, I put them into random groups. Otherwise, they would just sit with their little friends and kiki the whole time. But I break them into groups and I give each group a field that's not astronomy. And they have to present on dark matter in the source material that I give them from that field. And then they have to relate it back to the astrophysical dark matter that they learned about all week. So from the ones that we cover, there's two that I really, really love besides sociology one, which I already told you about. I really love musical dark matter. So I have them look at songs that are called Dark Matter or they have Dark Matter in the lyrics. And I make them look at this song by Bjork called Dark Matter from her album Biophilia. And the special thing about that song is that it has no words. Or like they're gibberish.
Kashif
I'm like going to ejaculate. I'm obsessed. I'm obsessed with this song. Oh my God, that is my tea. Blake knows I like gibberish
Blake
Kashif's gonna be writing to this tomorrow in the coffee shop
Kashif
Oh my god
KeShawn
You're gonna love it And the first time I heard it I was like, Is it just Icelandic? Because she is Icelandic And there's a gibberish quality to that language, no shade to those people.
Kashif
They're going to come and drag you. But this makes me think of Lisa Gerrard from the Gladiator score, one of the scores. Now We Are Free, I think it's called.
Blake
Yes.
KeShawn
Very that.
Kashif
And as a person who grew up Pentecostal, listen, the first time I heard that, I was like glossolalia.
KeShawn
Glossolalia
Kashif
I mean, I felt the anointing in my cheeks. Amen. Yeah. So I love that. Okay.
KeShawn
But so there's no words to the song. It has a sort of like gibberish texture.
Kashif
And how do the students respond to it?
KeShawn
So I will give you the coolest things they've ever said to me. One time the music group, they listened to the actual sort of timbre and the instrumentation. And they said, well, it's a lot of like wind, like it's choir and sort of airy instruments. And that sounds sort of like the cosmos and like the void. And I loved that. And then this year, I was actually just so pleasantly amazed because a student, she was just like, I don't know what I'm going to say. Like in this presentation, what am I going to do? And I'm like, it's up to you. You just have to open your mind a little bit and give me something. And she's like, all right, all right. No words, but there's kind of syllables. And then she's like, wait, maybe the same way that dark matter is this gap in our knowledge. Maybe it's the space between the words that she's not filling.
Kashif
Listen, that'll preach, honey. That is so churchy.
KeShawn
I was just like, do you see when you just let the kids do their thing? They just come up with this gorgeous material, just beautiful. So yeah, the musical Dark Matter, it really speaks to me. And it's like consistently the most fun that we have.
Blake
It's funny. Like this makes me think of how sometimes I'll like make a demo on my phone or something. And I will bring it in and we will record that demo in a studio. And it'll sound so professional. It'll sound like everything is perfect and on time. And it is still missing something that the original demo had. And we can't recreate it. And we don't know how to get back to it. The magic and the soulfulness that somehow made it in. That's what I think of when I think of musical dark matter. And creation in general, even if it comes to writing. Sometimes when you sit down and the muse takes hold of you. And somehow you spit out something that you don't know how it got there. You don't know where it came from. And you were just kind of carried along on a wind and plopped down somewhere else, you know?
Kashif
I was going to mention the writing, too. That was where I was going to go. That sometimes also when you conceive, an idea comes to mind. And even if you write it down right away, there is sometimes a gap. And it is dark matter. But there's something, I don't know, that feels kind of sacred about that. Like, was that ever supposed to be what got onto the page? I don't know. I'm sort of of several minds about it. But I feel like that valley, that dearth is the dark matter.
KeShawn
I like that idea of was it supposed to be there? Was that kind of just for me? I like that. I was in an acapella group when I was in college. And Blake, I really do feel that we did all of our own arrangements in the group. And so that was a very fun sort of democratic process where if you wanted to write something, you would just write it. You'd bring it to the music director. And he'd kind of get it the way that we wanted it to be and we'd sing it.
Blake
I love that.
KeShawn
It was fantastic. It was a great experience. It was great practice for arranging and composing and that kind of stuff. But whenever we would do an album, there would be just a noticeable difference. There's a certain magic in doing the live show version. Even though the notes on the page are the same and everybody is singing the same part. But there was just something in that, like Rice University Chapel, when we would sing it in front of that audience versus when we got into that studio, there's just something else.
Blake
Yeah.
KeShawn
And yeah, it is dark matter.
Blake
So, like, obviously dark matter is useful to just the everyday person for its utility and just, like, describing other things in life, like we've been talking about. But, like, why should us non-astro normies know what dark matter is, do you think? Or should we?
KeShawn
So, okay, I think I'm a little different than a lot of astronomers because I am not the kind of astronomer who's going to like spend time making people believe that what I do is important because I don't actually believe that what I do is important. I think that what I do is fun and interesting. And I think that what a joy it is to be living in a world where people can do things for a living that are fun and interesting and not always important. However, I do think for most people, there is some part of you that would like to know what the majority of the matter in the universe is made of, or at least to know that we don't currently know what the majority of the matter in the universe is made of. That's knowledge that I think should be open and available to people that want it. And that's knowledge that I think should be at least provided to young people so that if they do become more interested, they know that that's out there. Because the thing with astronomy is that there's not a lot of astronomy curriculum, typically, that's required to teach young people. And so I think there's a lot of people out there that probably would be astronomers if they knew that they could even do that. So to the question of like, why should you care? I can't tell you that you should. But if you are curious what most of the matter in the universe is, there's a reason to care about dark matter. But I do have a vested interest in at least making the knowledge available so that people who do wish to seek it out could find it. So yeah, I'm never going to feel bad that somebody's not into astronomy because somebody who's not into astronomy, my mother, that lady does not care what I do for a living. She never asks. She doesn't want to know. She doesn't know what my research area is. When I come home for Christmas, we don't talk about work and that's fine with me. I don't care that she doesn't care. But if she ever did start to care, it would be very important to me that the information is easy for her to find and that she doesn't have to go looking for academic journals because that's not communicable to the public. So I have a very vested interest in science communication to the people that want to know more.
Kashif
Is that what has led you to, like, I heard you say on another podcast that your plan is to, like, once you're done with your PhD, leave the academy and then go to work at a planetarium?
KeShawn
Yeah. Planetariums, museums, something in that vein is my vibe because I just can't keep doing the thing where I chip away on a paper that I know three people are going to read. And it might be a fantastic paper. And those three people might get a lot of utility out of it. But it isn't reaching people in the way that I have found that I need to reach people. And I feel that if I were to keep on in research and academia, it's all too locked up in the ivory tower. Ironic, my last name is Ivory, I know, but it's just, it's all too gatekeepy for me. And I need to branch out. So yeah, a museum that's got like a planetarium in it would be my ideal gig because the foot traffic is from people of all ages. Maybe, sure, there's like a price of entry that technically is somewhat of a barrier. So there's that. But overall, It's just a more accessible place than where I'm at now. Where I'm at, like, literally right now is, like, in this locked room in the astronomy building of Vanderbilt. Like, there's nobody in here. You know, the people are out there.
Kashif
Do you think that since you talk about the people, I have this feeling that our society, especially in the global West, is very, like, space obsessed, maybe, in some way. And I'm thinking about like in terms of our vocabulary. So words like wormhole, stellar, nebulous, stardust, those are, you know, those have taken on a new sort of meaning in the popular imagination and the words that we use every day. Why do you think that is? Like, maybe I'm wrong. Are we space obsessed?
KeShawn
I think so. I also think about the NASA, NASA merch sells like hotcakes everywhere. The girlies love the NASA, the meatball and the worm, like the two NASA logos. They put them on a sweater and it's going to be sold out like that. So it's true. People really do like space. And also I think about the astrology girlies and the horoscopes. That's never gone anywhere. That's been a thing for all of human history. But it's really taken hold in this moment for whatever reason. So I do think there is a space obsession. And I think it's just because astronomy gets at something that's really, really human. I think that astronomy just gets at this core of like, we all have a memory of kind of just looking up at the sky and just wondering what goes on. Or like even feeling the sun's warmth and being like, how does that happen? Or like seeing the moon and being like, how did that get there? Just things like this. They're very human. They're very human experiences. It just so happens that some of us are more curious than others. And so we make it a career. But I think the fundamental curiosity is a very human thing. And so language like that, I think it does resonate with the vast majority of people. Because we are situated in this universe and positioned in a way that we're constantly looking out at it. And how do you not wonder, at least sometimes?
Kashif
Did your, because I know that you grew up in a black church and you now identify as spiritual, not Christian. How did your conceptualization of the universe change?
KeShawn
That's a really, really great question because full context, I'm from Dallas, I'm from the suburb of Dallas, Texas. And my family on both sides are all from like rural Arkansas. So we are Southern Black folks, real old school. And so, yeah, growing up, it was very God created the world, very Adam and Eve. That was kind of like the origin story. But funny enough, like I was never really taught to kind of mistrust like astronomy or like the Big Bang Theory or any of that, really. And I kind of chalked that up to my parents kind of, oddly enough, maybe their kind of lack of curiosity about astronomy. Like they didn't know too much about it. So they almost didn't know enough about it for it to feel like a threat to their own sort of cosmology. So the more I got into astronomy, they were just like, okay, like go for it. Like whatever you want to do, we believe in you. Very supportive. And that was a good thing because the more I learned and the more I figured out, like, how scientists got to our current picture of the universe and all of that, there was less of a space for that sort of creation myth that I was taught. There was less of a space for that. But the thing is, I never did believe that what I had come to believe and what my parents believed was at odds. Because perhaps this God that my mom really wants me to believe in really badly would be the one to initiate this Big Bang event that I believe happened. I don't think that those things had to be in tension. I never really felt that they needed to be in tension. And so my fall out of Christianity really didn't have anything to do with the development of my science identity. If anything, it was just me asking more questions about why the rules in this book needed to apply to me or anyone else. Like the rules that I was being told to follow, they weren't making a lot of sense. What's the big issue with me being gay? Things like this. It wasreally those kinds of questions that caused me to fall out of the Christian tradition. But I never did lose the spiritual sense because there's just been too many things in my life that have a magic and a spirituality about them. The feeling that there have been too many things that have gone too well or moments where I felt myself being looked after or cared for by something that was bigger than me or any person. And so I've never let go of the spirituality. But this specific kind of organized religion thing definitely stopped being my vibe at some point.
Kashif
I think what's hard for me now in talking about the universe, especially in listening to several of your interviews, and knowing that there are trillions of galaxies in the universe.
KeShawn
I think it's like 10 to the 11. So what is that? Like 10 to 100 billion? Yeah, almost over a trillion. Almost, yeah.
Kashif
When I heard that, I was driving when I listened to, I think it was you or the co-guest on the interview say that. And I was like, when I'm talking about the universe caring for me, I was not like, it just seemed, I thought about the universe as this energy that knows me personally and that would orchestrate things in my life. But when I heard that number, I was sort of like, oh, my God, that is a massive, like, it just, it changed things for me. And I am allowing that to happen. But it's just fascinating to know. It's sort of either expanding or taking something apart entirely. And I guess I'll just see what that looks like.
KeShawn
That's a really good point. How do I kind of reconcile the feeling small or being small in the grand scheme of it all, but also, yes, feeling personally addressed by, quote unquote, the universe? Yeah, there is there is a inherent kind of juxtaposition there. And I don't I don't think that I can resolve that. But I think that's OK. I'm not bothered by that.
Kashif
So, KeShawn, you've been involved with Black and Astro since its inception.
KeShawn
Yeah, yeah, just about.
Kashif
So how did you get involved with it? And why is it important now, especially in the face of like DEI rollbacks? Have you received any pushback?
KeShawn
Oh, yeah. Great question. Okay. So I got involved because the founder, Ashley Walker, she's a PhD student. She's an astrochemist at Howard University. And she's one of my closest friends in the field. Someone that I was really so, so blessed to meet at a research internship in 2017. and we've been genuinely inseparable since then. And so when she first started Black in Astro, before it took the form that it currently takes, which I'll talk about, initially it was her sort of highlighting Black astronomers like on Twitter, like on social media. It was still called Twitter at that time. It was still usable and whatnot. And she would highlight Black astronomers and talk about their research. And it was just a really great platform for like uplifting Black astronomers. So Black in Astro really kind of finds its true origin point in 2020, post murder of George Floyd. Everybody's at home COVID-wise. So we kind of have the world's attention for a second. And you see this like Black in X, like Black in physics, Black in chemistry, like all these experiences of Black folks in sort of academia start to come out. And Black and Astro was born out of this. So in 2021, Ashley decides that she wants to really make this a thing for real, like with lasting, like staying power. So she puts a team together and she taps people in her life that she knows do good work. And she believed me to be one of those people, which is very kind. And so I became the events director. And so my job really is every June, the week of Juneteenth. It's always week of Juneteenth. We have Black Space Week. And so it's a week of mostly virtual programming where we have panelists from all different areas of the space industry, space humanities, space law, plain old astrophysics, aerospace, engineering, like everywhere. We bring them in, do a panel discussion. There's a Q&A. There's like Zoom. You can register for the Zoom. It's just a big, fun, genuinely global event that we do. And as to why it's important, especially now, I mean, in some sense, like we all we got right now, like as Black folks in the space industry or really in any field, if we don't come together to like support each other, like nobody is going to come to our rescue. Like since the federal government is doing this whole DEI rollbacks, we're not interested in funding that woke stuff. Everybody's looking to private donors instead. So now it's super competitive over there, right? And so if Black and Astro can take whatever scraps of that private money and distribute it to the Black folks in space and doing space things, I'm happy with that. So as to why it's important now, it's because it's on us to be there for us. And so Black and Astro has always done that, even before this moment. And we will continue to do that. Even in however many years when the pendulum swings back the other way, we'll keep doing what we've always done because we've always done it.
Kashif
And you know, the pendulum is going to swing back in the other direction.
KeShawn
And they'll pretend that this never happened.
Kashif
It never happened. But listen, as they say, he's making a list. He's checking it twice. He's going to find out who's naughty or nice. Okay. I'm making a list and I'm checking it twice.
KeShawn
I remember. I remember. I remember.
Kashif
Okay. I be knowing. So yeah, it's going to be very interesting to see what the energy is when the pendulum spins back in the other direction. Okay. Yeah, that's really, really, really good to know.
Blake
Honestly, KeShawn, this could fall under the category of just stuff that I want to talk to you about off air. But from what I understand, it could kind of relate to dark matter. I wanted to know, what is your favorite end of the universe theory.
KeShawn
Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is a good cosmology link because the idea is that what happens at the end of the universe has to do with sort of like the structure and like the curvature of the universe. So we know what's happening right now is like accelerating expansion of the universe. And that's got to do with dark energy, which is not related to dark matter, but the dark is that, again, that dark ages kind of dark, that placeholder of like, we don't know what it is. We just know it's driving this accelerating expansion. So either this expansion goes on and then stops. So there's that idea. Or the expansion just goes on forever, forever, forever, heat death of the universe. Or some more kind of exciting ones. Expansion goes on and then sort of a big crunch or a big bounce and a regeneration. So I guess I like the idea of a big sort of recoil bounce back. A new universe has sprung forth from the first one. Like I love the notion of that. I think that's very literary. I think there's a lot of poetry in that. But I'm kind of obsessed with the whole heat death of the universe thing the idea that stuff just it just spreads out and spreads out and it just keeps spreading and then eventually everything is just so far that just communication is impossible and it's just cold everything is just cold like that's so bleak and that's also literary
Blake
It is literary it makes me think of um the great divorce by c.s lewis where hell is evenly distributed, like all of all of hell's residents are evenly distributed because like they essentially want isolation. And so that kind of makes me think of the heat death of the universe where like everything eventually becomes, like I could be getting this totally wrong, but like if there are edges to the universe, then like eventually everything will be so evenly distributed that we're all like optimally isolated.
KeShawn
Oh, I like thinking of it that way. I will read that and then connect that. And maybe that is worked into a future syllabus.
Kashif
And you ain't getting no credit. So kiss that goodbye.
Blake
That's fine.
KeShawn
No, no, no, not true. Not true. I always...
Blake
It's fine. It's fine. Reparations.
Kashif
Okay. Well, yeah. Don't do what I do, KeShawn, because I'll take an idea from Blake and be like, bye, sorry, reparations.
KeShawn
No.
Blake
Bye!
Kashif
No, I do not do that.
KeShawn
That's so funny.
Kashif
I do not do that. All right. We're going to take another quick break and we'll be right back.
Blake
All right. We're back. Every episode we play a little game at the end where we text the randomizer on my phone "Who's going to be there" and then us introverts—KeShawn would you call yourself an introvert? Or what's your relationship to introversion and extroversion?
KeShawn
I would call myself an introvert who's really really good at performing in rooms of people but truly introverted.
Blake
I feel that i feel that on a deep level
Kashif
Yes okay
Blake
So we are going to text this randomizer on my phone it's going to spit out three names at us and then based on who those three people are we're going to decide are we going to this party are we not going to this party do we have the social energy to hang or are we staying home. All right so here we go the first name is Katy Perry
KeShawn
Okay
Blake
Second name: Gayle King Third name: Lauren Sanchez Where have these people all been together before I must confess this was not random
Kashif
Sorry we couldn't resist
KeShawn
This is so funny. No Gail King literally was at the Katy Perry concert because I saw Gayle King's Instagram where she was like astronauts reunited and I was like
Kashif
She is milking it
KeShawn
Oh my gosh.
Kashif
Okay. But also when her face became that meme, when she had like the like stressed out face and that wig was shifted just a little bit to the left. Cause you know, that part was not in the right.
KeShawn
It did give us that.
Kashif
Girl, I knew she was tired. She was worn out.
KeShawn
It gave us that moment. She was tense.
Kashif
She was very tense. That is the image of like, I'm not sure, but I'm still going cause I got to get this coin. Okay. Oh my God.
KeShawn
And did.
Kashif
Yeah.
KeShawn
So, you know, honestly, I have to say I'm going because I have questions. I need to ask these ladies some questions.
Kashif
Okay, what are your questions?
KeShawn
I need to understand, like, what did the outreach process look like when they were tapped to do this very bizarre and performative thing? What did that look like? Who contacted them? What went through their mind? Why did you say yes? There's so many things I need to understand. Do you think this is feminist? Like, do you think this is radical? Do you think this does anything for for anyone like i just i just need to ask so many questions. I would go to the party i think i would get kicked out of the party by one of their security for asking too many questions but i would i need to be there
Kashif
I think i would probably go because I would want to know firstly this is so terrible and the girls are going to drag me for this. I would want to ask Gayle like did does she have like clips under the wig or is it like glued down like how did it stay on you know without the gravity like i just want to know that
KeShawn
Oh Black in astro indeed
Kashif
This is a Black in astro question though you know but for real this is Black this is Black and astro. Okay um i would want to know what in the devil possessed Katy Perry to start singing you know what a wonderful world
Speaker 3
I just, Idon't know it's just like
Blake
with the little flower
Kashif
Hello? Like where are we and then Lauren Sanchez, I don't even know what i would want to ask her i think i would just look at her, just like a staring contest. I would just stare and just say like i don't know what is your life? Did you when you were up there were you thinking of like getting away from Jeff Bezos? i don't know, i have no clue but you know i i think i would go i think i would go Because i wouldn't be too stressed out i would probably again i would also have questions and But okay okay we have to keep in mind if we are going Oprah's gonna be there as well
KeShawn
That's true Okay so that's true I'm going home with something. I'm going home with something. Hopefully it's a car
Kashif
Hopefully it's a car hopefully it's a red chevy impale man. But you know if oprah's there and you start asking Gayle too many questions, she's gonna you know
Blake
yeah
Kashif
Uh you will be silenced
Blake
We know what both of them think about my hometown so i don't think I'd be allowed at this point.
KeShawn
Oh yeah that's right
Kashif
They would both point you were there you were there.
Blake
I would have to lie. I would have to lie to get into this party. I would want to go though. This might be bad. I don't think that I'd be able to stand Katy Perry for too long, but I kind of want to ask her about her like early time in Nashville, trying to be a Christian singer songwriter and like.
KeShawn
Katherine Hudson.
Kashif
Yes.
Blake
And like dating the lead singer of Relient K for a second. Like I want to get the scoop on that world at that time. And then I'd probably, I would have my fill at that point. I'd probably be ready to go home.
KeShawn
There'd be good wine. They would have good wine at that party.
Blake
Maybe some cocktails.
Kashif
Yeah. I mean, good hors d'oeuvres, you know, fancy piggies in a blanket. They'd probably have like astronaut themed food.
KeShawn
Most likely.
Kashif
I don't know what that would be like. Freeze dried caviar or something.
KeShawn
Oh, okay.
Kashif
Get creative with it.
KeShawn
And there'd be really good bread because Oprah said it. I love bread. I love bread.
Kashif
I don't know what bread would travel well in space. Something that was not flaky.
KeShawn
Not crumbly. Can't be crumbly.
Kashif
Maybe like some sort of fancy potato bread. I have no clue. Yeah. Okay. Great. I think we're all going. Just no questions for Lauren. Maybe that's the title of this episode. No questions for Lauren.
KeShawn
Just staring.
Kashif
Just staring. That's it. Okay. KeShawn, how can people find you and get in touch with you?
KeShawn
Yeah. So my own personal social that I use most of the time is Kiki Ivory, K-E-K-E-I-V-O-R-Y on Instagram. But also be sure to go to blackandastro.com and add yourself to our mailing list to keep up with everything that we're doing when Black Space Week comes back around in June and the stuff that we also do throughout the year. So those are kind of the big two.
Kashif
All right. Perfect. Thank you so much.
Blake
Thanks, KeShawn.
KeShawn
My pleasure. Thank you.
Kashif
Well, that's all for today. If there's someone you think needs to know about dark matter being black in astro or about space and space exploration, please share this with that friend. Also, we'd love it if you rated and followed us to hear from us again in the future.
Blake
We'd also love to interact with you on our social media accounts. So please go follow us on Instagram and TikTok. Both are @whosgonnabetherepod. And if there's a name you think belongs in our name randomizer, you can submit your entry at whosgonnabetere.com.
Kashif
A big thank you to Michael Eads at We Own This Town for his help with distribution, engineering, and all around wisdom.
Blake
We'll be back in two weeks. Until then, Kashif, it is good to meet.
Kashif
It is sad to part.
Blake
Is that Iyanla? She came up on my tiktok. She was like are you tired? Not just in your mind not just in your heart but in your soul? Is your sould tired? I was like yes, it is.