S1 EP04 - “It Ain’t Small!”: The Noah’s Arc Empire
Blake
Hello everyone, welcome to Who's Gonna Be There, a podcast that washes its Prep down with a nice warm cup of coffee. My name is Blake.
Kashif
My name is Kashif.
Blake
And this week we are really excited to be devoting a whole episode to Noah's Arc.
Kashif
And not the Bible Noah's Arc.
Blake
No, we are done talking about the Bible.
Kashif
Over.
Blake
Did that last episode. No, we're talking about the TV show and now movie. Well, there have been a couple movies. But for those that don't know, it's just a phenomenon that for many young, queer, Black men of our generation was a possibility model for what life could look like. We just have a lot of thoughts about it. And we're excited to get into it. So stick around.
Blake
INTRO MUSIC Well, Kashif, before we launch into Noah's Arc, I just want to check in. What you been up to the last couple of weeks?
Kashif
Yeah, last couple of weeks have been interesting. I was in New York for my sister's wedding.
Blake
How was it?
Kashif
It was beautiful. But it was also like, I was aware of how much time has passed. Like my little sister is a grown ass woman. I mean, she's only two years younger than me. But I think I have always thought about her as still a little girl. Which when she was up there saying, I do, I was like, oh, yeah, she has really grown up. and she's going to be moving across the country. So there's a lot of change and gain and loss and feelings wrapped up in that. But mostly I'm just proud of her. And yeah, it was good to be back in New York. And every time I'm back, I dedicate time to exploring and seeing new parts of each borough. So I spent time in Harlem, went to a couple of parties that were interesting, you know. I saw a lot of butt cheeks. So that was a very pleasant experience. And I explored a lot of coffee shops as well. I love to just kind of write, sit in the window and watch people walk by while I'm writing. And I really enjoyed that. One thing I did notice about this trip was that I did not go on the Bronx River Trail, which was a place that I had been going back to to try to meet with my teenage self and try to understand what it was like, what I was like, all of the loneliness and the longing and to try to sort of reparent that boy who I felt like was stuck on that trail. And this was the first trip that I didn't go back to the trail. I feel like that's kind of over. It was very noisy. I will also say that. A lot of Jamaicans. So you had a room full of Jamaicans and then white people from Oregon. So that combination is a novel. So you have one side that's just very, very, very expressive. And everything is a story. Everything is a song. And then the other side that's just extremely reserved. And their own sort of whiteness, if you will. Love them to death. But this is going to be interesting. So we welcome expansion. And yeah. So that was the past couple of weeks.
Blake
Yeah, it's obviously a new chapter for your sister, but I'm interested in what sounds like maybe a new chapter for you in the sense that you didn't feel the need to go commune with your younger self, at least on this trip.
Kashif
Yeah, I think that all that is sort of done and wrapped up for me. I think I know, at least for right now, I know what I need to know about what led me to Tennessee. And we talked about that in a previous episode. And I think now I'm just like ready for the future to see every time. Yeah, every time I go back, I think from here on, it's examining whether Brooklyn is a place I could live or Harlem, all of those things. So what about you? What's been up lately?
Blake
Well, I saw family too. Usually every year before football season starts, I take a trip back to see my family out in Colorado. It was nice to have a little space to just chill out, to have no responsibilities, to get back in that dry, hot air that just makes me come alive.
Kashif
That is the whitest thing you have ever said.
Blake
Oh my God, I love the dry, hot air that makes me come alive. Yes. Yeah.
Kashif
Great.
Blake
Yeah. Get me out of this.
Kashif
The turquoise that makes me come alive. Sorry.
Blake
It does though.
Kashif
It does.
Blake
Yeah. So I saw my family and now I'm in football season.
Kashif
Yeah.
Blake
Yeah. That's my life. You know?
Kashif
Yeah.
Blake
As y'all like to joke, all of my friends turned over custody to me during football season. And now it's just like all of these hours that I'm logging over there. I don't think people understand. In fact, I know people don't when I tell them just the level of commitment that it is for me. That I'm literally working every day from now until January. And when I say every day, I mean literally every day.
Kashif
Yes. Your eyes are bloodshot red.
Blake
Yes. Body is worn the fuck out. So the physical toll, the just, yeah, mental and emotional toll that it takes. This is my 12th year doing it. So I kind of know what's coming, but it doesn't really make it any easier. And whatever point in my life I stop doing this, I will feel like I will get my summers back a little bit. You know, I started doing this at 24, which was like not too long after college. And so it feels like for most of my life, there is that feeling that you get when you go back to school where like summertime isn't over, but like there's this thing that marks the end of summer, you know? So now you're inside looking longingly out of the windows.
Kashif
Like a little puppy. Oh no.
Blake
So that's, that's what football does. Only now it's like late July when I have to do that, you know?
Kashif
Yeah, I feel like we're always in a custody battle with the NFL.
Blake
Yes.
Kashif
Like in divorce court, like, uh-uh, give him back to us.
Blake
Yeah.
Kashif
So we're trying to get a couple more weeks, but, you know, so far not successful.
Blake
Yeah. Or at least, you know, a raise.
Kashif
A raise. Something, you know.
Blake
So that I can pour back into the community.
Kashif
Everybody who wants more money, that's exactly what they say. I'm going to give back.
Blake
Sure.
Kashif
Yeah, sure. Ten Berkins later.
Blake
We need more money so that we can be more generous.
Kashif
Exactly. So we can keep the capitalist wheel going, but in a kinder way.
Blake
Well, another thing that I did last couple weeks was I binged Noah's Arc. All of it.
Kashif
Yeah.
Blake
And for those that have just like seen a couple episodes of Noah's Arc, you might not know that it's extensive.
Kashif
It is.
Blake
The amount of Noah's Arc content that's out there.
Kashif
The short film, the Rona Chronicles, the movies.
Blake
Web series, movies.
Kashif
The two movies. Yeah.
Blake
Yeah. So I tried to gobble up literally everything that I could find. I just did a deep dive. But for those that don't know what Noah's Ark is, can you give us a brief overview? What is it?
Kashif
Yeah. So Noah's Arc is, as we were talking about the TV series, it really is the Noah's Ark empire. But the Noah's Arc that is most commonly known is a two-season show that premiered in 2005 on MTV's logo. So it was first pitched as a one-hour short that you can still find, which was released in 2004. So Patrick Ian Polk, the writer and director, had this idea that he said came to him at an L.A. Black Pride event. Also around that time, he was in a room of industry leaders who were trying to figure out what they could do to help the Black AIDS crisis. And so there were healthcare folks, folks in business, but him as a writer, creator, he thought that he could create a series like Noah's Ark to push messaging out about not just safer sex practices, but about Black gay life. And so that's where we get Noah's Arc. There's so much that can be said, but it follows the lives of mainly four black gay characters. So you have Noah, who is a writer.
CLIP: Noah
"It's taken me a lifetime to get comfortable in my own skin."
Kashif
Hence Arc. But also in your research, not in mine, you found out that Ark stands for Alex, Ricky Chance.
Blake
Which are the three other.
Kashif
Which are the three other characters, three other leads.
Blake
Which is definitely something that you would do.
Kashif
I would absolutely do that. Just put a little nugget in there.
Blake
100%.
Kashif
And say, were you paying attention? I think I'm a teacher at heart. I used to love when in English classes, especially when I was an undergrad, when there would be a little hint in the writing. And my professor would stop and be like, see who got it. And I was always like, listen, I'm Veronica Mars.
Blake
I'm on this.
Kashif
Okay, I'm on this. Okay, so that's Noah's Arc. So we have the 2004 film short that essentially it was pitched as a web series. And the idea to generate revenue was to send it out as a DVD subscription service, which makes sense because at that time, Netflix was still doing DVDs and that was really popular. So it made sense to do that. According to Patrick Ian Polk, it was so popular that the website crashed. And so once that happened, MTV decided to buy a full run, a proper TV show, 30-minute episodes. So 2004, that film short. Then we get the 2005 to 2006 television series on Logo. That was canceled. So then we get the 2008 Jumping the Broom movie, which was Logo sort of coming back and saying, we recognize there's still a demand for this. And Patrick Ian Polk talks about it as sort of like a consolation prize a bit. But we get Jumping the Broom. And then we get the Rona Chronicles during the pandemic.
Blake
Which I understand sort of correlates with like a 15-year anniversary.
Kashif
Reunion, yeah.
Blake
Kind of thing.
Kashif
Yes.
Blake
Right.
Kashif
And then, of course, the latest installation, which premiered on Paramount, Noah's Ark, the movie.
Blake
There's this entire mythos around Noah's Arc that I hear time and time again of some young black queer boy before he was out of the closet watching Noah's Arc in secret, maybe sometimes literally inside of a closet or late at night on the TV with like their finger on the last channel button in case somebody walked in and fascinated by the story of Noah's Arc. But for you, how did these characters, this story, this world impact you? When did you first encounter it? And what did it mean to you?
Kashif
Noah's Arc I encountered late at night. We had gotten cable. And so I was exploring all of these channels. And I came across this channel called Logo. Something flashed on the screen and said, you know, lesbian, gay, whatever. And I thought, this is like contraband. Like, I'm not supposed to be watching this. So Noah's Ark comes on and I am curious about it. And I remember the opening credits. "You and me." And just thinking like, okay, what is this show? But I remember feeling very pulled in by Noah and by Ricky and Alex and Chance. And also kind of frightened because in my house, I knew that what they were was wrong. However, there was a secret world that we came to share. And I was one of the kids who watched Noah's Arc with my finger on that last button, you know, going back to like, I don't know what it was, maybe news or something. And I'm sure my parents were like, this kid is not watching the news at 1030 at night. He ain't that studious. But I, yeah, I encountered gay men who felt gay, you know, to me or felt like something like they read as gay.
Blake
Yeah.
Kashif
They were not like these necessarily these hyper masculine forms. Noah wore clothes that I wanted to wear. Like I wanted to be soft like that. And my community did not allow that kind of gender play. So, yeah, I mean, I think Noah's Arc, I will tell you, watching it back this time, some of the episodes I barely got through because the men were so fine. I mean, I was like jacking off to some of them.
Blake
They're fine
Kashif
Okay, fine.
Blake
Wade is maybe my dream man.
Kashif
Yeah.
Blake
I'm not joking. Like, if I'm imagining, like, a dream man, like, Wade is in my mind at this point in my life.
Kashif
But out and proud, not DL.
Blake
Not DL.
Kashif
Okay.
Blake
No, I'm thinking of, like, the new movie.
Kashif
Yes. Okay, that Wade, we celebrate the growth.
Blake
Okay.
Kashif
Wade, after he has been with Ian Iyanla Vanzant, she has said, beloved, be who you are. You know, she's put his head to the ground and said, speak right over that hole. Speak into that hole.
Blake
Speak into that hole.
Kashif
It's interesting. Wade for me was like, I always thought Wade was hot, but Quincy did it for me. Oh, my fucking God. Quincy with that big wide chest, especially when we come to like season two and the Ovenous ball when Quincy is walking down and he's just like with the high-waisted pants and that that fedora tip I honestly this is going to be TMI but whatever I I literally remember that was in a moment of ascendance okay
Blake
But Quincy's also a very protective figure
Kashif
So yeah Quincy but Quincy's avery protective figure but I think I also found that very sexy
Blake
Yeah
Kashif
And very alluring because of like I did not feel protected I needed that I loved the scene where he's sitting in the convertible with Noah and he's like so big and like almost like busting out of the convertible and there's like Noah kind of just like you know
CLIP: Noah
Yeah with his like surprise eyes and
Kashif
I love the idea of Quincy I love definitely the sense of like safety obviously it comes across in the show is like, he's overprotective. Like he's doing too much. But I, that appealed to me, you know? So yeah, that was how Noah's Arc came into my life.
Blake
Tell us about the characters. Obviously we've got Noah, who's the main character. Right?
Kashif
Right. So Noah is the ingenue.
CLIP: Noah
Maybe I should call him.
Blake
He is.
Kashif
And I actually, I quite love that word to describe these black gay characters in particular, because often we don't get to be the ingenue. We don't get to be the innocent sort of like guy next door type characters. It's always like, you know, the Mandingo. And the Mandingo is nice. Okay, amen. Okay, it's all right. But, you know, we have variety. And so I think what we get with Noah is this like wide-eyed kind of like doe, who's really smart, who's, you know, a great writer and is taking the world in and is very observative. And is very, is sure that he's gay. This is not a, this is not a story where people are necessarily coming out. That is featured as like a sort of subplot for only a few characters, which is, is very different.
Blake
Yes. I, I mean, I love Noah because Noah, like depending on the day can really lean into that more femme presenting kind of persona and he's so at home in it.
Kashif
Yeah.
Blake
And then there might be like, he might have like a football jersey on in another episode and his shoulders are broad.
Kashif
Yeah.
Blake
And I don't know how much of that is like the character that was written or just Daryl Stevens, the actor who plays Noah inhabiting the role as he is. But whatever it is, it eludes strict definition.
Kashif
Yes.
Blake
And is very sexy.
Kashif
It is very sexy. And I think that permission to do that was what I saw in Noah. I loved that. That I was like, okay, I can give you off the shoulder today. And tomorrow I can be like, you know, butch queen, whichever.
Blake
You never got the sense that he was like unsure about the experiment that he was doing. He was always so confident at home.
Kashif
That was a model for me. And it explains, at least to me, a lot of my fashion choices.
Blake
I was going to ask about that.
Kashif
Yeah, because that was what I always wanted. It just felt like, to me, it appeared on the screen liberating because Noah got to be soft also. So we have Noah. We have Alex, who is, Alex is the more femme, but also just like the, a little bit of the mama bear.
CLIP: Alex
"You let him get your booginas?"
Kashif
But Alex is an AIDS crisis counselor, a healthcare worker, and provides a lot of comic relief, but they all provide comic relief, which is very important because Alex as a, well, we have several dark skin characters, but oftentimes, because I wondered when I was thinking about this, I was like, was Alex like the sort of like Black mammy? Oftentimes you get that with the fat Black character, that's like the comic relief essentially is, you know, the butt end of jokes or that just is just there for humor. But it's really evenly divided. And Alex is dating a muscle bound.
Blake
One of the hottest guys on the show.
Kashif
One of the hottest guys.
Blake
Trey.
Kashif
Trey.
CLIP: Trey
Let's do it. Let's have a baby.
Kashif
But Trey, I just remember being like shocked. when I saw him on the screen.
Blake
Yeah.
Kashif
But his relationship to Alex, also I just adore. And he obviously, in the TV show, he adores Alex as well.
Blake
Yeah.
Kashif
So we have Trey. We have Ricky, who Ricky is like the Blanche Devereaux of the group.
Blake
He's the hoe.
CLIP: Ricky
Normalcy and sex. Two words that should never be used in the same sentence.
Kashif
Ricky is the hoe.
Blake
Self-described.
Kashif
Yes. And we love it. We celebrate it. But even the hoe has a storyline. And has depth and dimension.
Blake
He does, yeah.
Kashif
Boy, in many ways. So we give God the praise. And also I should mention that Ricky owns a clothing store.
Blake
Yeah.
Kashif
So he's a fashionista, but they're all fashionistas.
Blake
Yeah.
Kashif
So we have Ricky and then lastly Chance. Chance Counter, whom we find out his name is Chance N. Counter. N. Counter. Chance.
Blake
That's too much.
Kashif
It is.
Blake
It's too much.
Kashif
I was like, okay, were we tired on the day we decided to write that? We're like, let me just put another thing in there just to, you know.
Blake
Yeah.
Kashif
It seemed like it was like our girl Patrick ran out of coffee and was just like, let me just, you know, I'm tired.
Blake
See if anyone's paying attention.
Kashif
See if anyone's paying attention. But Chance is the professor.
CLIP: Chance
The paradigms of the free market, capitalist consumerism, and individual freedom refracted through the eyes of a slave on the auction block.
Kashif
Chance is a professor, a husband, and at the beginning of season one, he's married a man who already has a child. So we really get a good variety of Black gay men. I mean, they're all very different.
Blake
Yeah. And I think if you were reading those four characters off of a script, you would think that they were caricatures of Black gay men. But once you actually get into the show, you're like, no. Like, even when it comes to their gender presentations.
CLIP: Noah
Yes.
Blake
All of them can, like, they can go with Noah and lean very femme. All of them can. I mean, on the dance floor.
Kashif
I was going to say, I mean, we see this in the drag scene.
Blake
Yes.
Kashif
Where they all.
Blake
They all are in drag. They're all, and they put on a performance.
Kashif
Oh my, I remember that just like the, ah, I loved it.
Blake
That was one of the sparkling moments of season one.
Kashif
Yes, I will never forget that. I mean, it's interesting. I watched that show. I was away from it for many years. I watched Jumping the Broom after, like long after it came out. I think I watched Jumping the Broom when I was in seminary.
Blake
Yeah.
Kashif
I came out in seminary and I was trying to find things that represented me. So I was reading Baldwin and then I just wanted to go back to Noah's Arc. And so I watched Jumping the Broom. But like even after being away from it for many years, that scene where they're all dancing together in that drag number, I don't know, it stayed with me. I was like, I want that. Yeah, that like dynamic where they can lean into being femme.
Blake
They can all lean into being fashionistas. They can all also have a conversation about like social dynamics and their experiences as Black men that like is more kind of Chance's forte and they can all participate in that conversation with him yeah they are all very multifaceted
Kashif
Yes
Blake
Even though they all kind of present like the four corners of some sort of graph
Kashif
Tes like exactly it does feel like the four you know yeah the the superpower like wind earth fire you know yes yeah yeah yeah and so
Blake
I guess what i'm curious about is like how would you chart yourself on that sort of graph right like I guess i have two questions: one, which of these characters do you most see yourself in? And then two, which of these characters do you most want to see yourself in?
Kashif
Okay.
Blake
If you know what I mean.
Kashif
I do. Yeah. So I probably see myself mostly as a blend of Noah and Chance.
Blake
Okay.
Kashif
I think now, for whatever reason, it's just happened that way that I'm in the Ricky season.
Blake
Yeah.
Kashif
Okay.
Blake
Yes.
Kashif
Yeah, yeah. That's where we are. That's it. But the character that I want to most see myself in, I mean, that's what you mean when you say in. Or see them in me.
Blake
Either one.
Kashif
It's Quincy.
CLIP: Quincy
So, what will you show me? Are you going to open my eyes?
Kashif
Hands down. There's no doubt about it. That like fake intellectual Caribbean accent that he does. I think that's so sexy. I want a man. I want a man to come up to me at an art gallery and just like kind of talk like, you know, something like, you know, the painting on the wall is very, you know.
CLIP: Quincy
You are truly an oasis in a Californian cultural desert.
Kashif
You're communicating to me: I can do great things with my tongue. That's what that says to me. So, yes, that's the reason I would be like, okay, great. I'm here for it.
Blake
Yeah.
Kashif
So that's who I see myself in. But I'm curious to know, for you, especially since there were no white leads in the show, who did you most identify with? And then I think we know who you saw yourself in or being "in'ed" by.
Blake
Well, this is the interesting part because the show not only did it have no white leads, like there were maybe like two white faces in the show, like one with lines maybe. Right?
Kashif
Yep. Only one.
Blake
And so I don't see myself in the show. And I don't really identify with the – I see those characters and I'm like, I would love to have them as friends.
Kashif
Yeah.
Blake
But I wouldn't say that I necessarily see myself. Of course, Wade.
Kashif
Yeah.
Blake
Wade.
Kashif
Yeah.
Blake
All day, all night.
Kashif
Yeah.
Blake
You know?
Kashif
Yeah.
Blake
But that's the thing is that, like, the thing about this show is Wade wouldn't want me.
Kashif
Right. And so let's get into it. Because first of all, it's very different than his previous film, Punks. In Punks, you have a character who's very much like Noah, who's an ingenue, who's very clean cut, but you do have white people with lines and white love interests. And the film opens with a white love interest. Very different. In Noah's arc, it is for the girls by the girls and that's it. In fact, Doug Spearman, who plays Chance, said that sometimes he and Daryl, Noah, would be at the gym and white gays would come up to them and say, you know, why aren't there any white characters in Noah's Arc? And he said, he would be like, first of all, it's Patrick's show. Second of all, why can't you imagine a world without you? You can't possibly imagine a world without you. I want to know, how did you feel watching a show where there were no white characters at all. Like, and you watched all of it. Like all of the, you know.
Blake
I didn't feel any kind of way about there being no white characters, really. I mean, like.
Kashif
You were too busy soaking up the foreign brothers. So you were probably very happy about that.
Blake
I was just like, fast forward to Wade, please. Let me wade into Wade.
Kashif
You better wade into it for the girls' come for you. You better wade in.
Blake
And wade back out.
Kashif
And wade back out.
Blake
Real quick.
Kashif
It's like, one night with the king and then I'm going back home. Back over to my side.
Blake
Okay.
Kashif
Okay, listen.
Blake
No, I mean, I adore these characters. And here's the thing. Before I went home, I mentioned earlier how I went home. Another thing that I like to do once a year is to take a big psilocybin journey.
Kashif
A big journey to Bethlehem.
Blake
To Bethlehem.
Kashif
Yes.
Blake
Or wherever your spiritual community is. Wherever your mountaintop is. And I did that on one Sunday and then as I was coming down, binged the second season of Noah's Arc. So I felt a little too connected to Noah's Arc in general. But later on, after thinking about this, one of the things I love about Noah's Arc is it doesn't concern itself with whiteness at all. It doesn't ask or answer those questions. It just exists.
Kashif
It exists, yeah.
Blake
And I adore that. I adore these characters. I adore their relationships. God, their friendships. And I adore the whole world that they've created for themselves in LA. And I also recognize that I don't belong in that world and that that world would be made worse by my presence, actually.
CLIP: Noah
Yeah.
Blake
But to your question, I do feel, I feel sad. I feel a sadness about that. And I want to quickly say that like one of the functions of white colonialism is that if there is an area of life where it doesn't see itself, it wants access. It demands access or ownership.
Kashif
Ownership or destroys.
Blake
Yeah. And so the sadness that I feel isn't about wanting access to those stories or to those friendships or ownership. And I certainly don't want to see it destroyed. The sadness that I feel comes from the recognition that as much as I would love to have friends like that, I know that those friends are the friends that they are because they are for gay Black men. Right?
Kashif
Yeah.
Blake
So, yeah. I mean, in the words of Iyanla, well, let me tell you, you're never going to get it.
Kashif
Does that sound like something you want? Well, let me tell you something. You'll never get it. Okay.
Blake
Exactly.
Kashif
Right.
Blake
But I think this is what makes Noah's Arc so good. And I'm not trying to step in a place where I don't belong. But like, I think that this is also something that good Black art does. Is that it holds a mirror up to that sadness that I feel.
Kashif
Yeah.
Blake
Because it exposes to me my own condition.
Kashif
And it says, beloved, why are you sad?
Blake
Why am I sad?
Kashif
Why are you sad?
Blake
And then I'm forced to answer that question.
Kashif
Yeah.
Blake
And to talk about that, I think I actually want to reference another great piece of Black art that we watched this year, Sinners.
Kashif
Yes. Okay.
Blake
And for the listeners, like if you haven't seen Sinners yet, A, what are you doing? And B, spoilers ahead.
Kashif
So at this point, stop and watch Sinners and then come back.
Blake
And then come back.
Kashif
Yeah.
Blake
But as I was thinking about this, I thought of Remick, the vampire in Sinners, right? We learn from Annie in Sinners that vampires, when they become vampires, their souls kind of become trapped.
CLIP: Annie
The soul gets stuck in the body. Can't rejoin the ancestors. Forced to live here with all this hate.
Blake
And so we have Remick, whose story it is to have this unquenchable, insatiable hunger for blood. Obviously, he's a vampire. But two, for the very thing that he gave up to become a vampire. which is like soulfulness, right? Connection to ancestor. He remembers what it was like and now is trying to get that by identifying it in the juke joint and then consuming it. And obviously Remick is an analogy for whiteness, right? Because a lot of us white folks, that's our cultural inheritance, is a longing for something that we sacrificed in order to gain political social power.
Kashif
The price of the ticket.
Blake
The price of the ticket. And so I guess what I'm saying is Noah's Ark is a kind of juke joint for me.
Kashif
Whoa.
Blake
And.
Kashif
Whoa. Okay.
Blake
Yeah. I mean, when I see Noah's Ark, I recognize a longing that I have, a sadness that I feel that if I were like Remick, I would try to get satiated by mindlessly, you know, devouring and still not being satiated. Right?
Kashif
Yeah.
Blake
And so I think another great thing about Noah's Arc and black art in general is it calls me in to answer the question why am I sad but to to also show me my soul is on the line in fixing all this shit. If I can identify a story that is that beautiful and that I can see I have no place in that. Well, where did where did my beauty go? How did I come to be with this kind of spiritual sickness that I'm experiencing?
CLIP: Noah
Yeah
Blake
And to know that okay in order to fix this broken system, I am concerned about how that system denigrates and oppresses my brothers and sisters who are Black. But also my soul is on the line in fixing that as well. Does that make sense?
Kashif
It does make sense. And I think the magic of it is that it can do that for you and for me, do something entirely different.
Blake
Entirely different.
Kashif
And for me, it was a model where I was not in competition with white dudes for anything.
Blake
Yeah.
Kashif
And feeling myself as Noah, it meant that like the most beautiful Black men would be attracted to me and would like want to sit in the car with me. And I could be like wide eyed and like do bits. Essentially what we get in so many of the other shows that like you have a Lorelai Gilmore, you know, Gilmore Girls who just is chatty, chatty, chatty, does bits, is wide eyed, is kind of like a little bit nutty. And she gets the guy. But Noah, for me, was the first example of a guy who was kind of played with gender, was himself, and he was the center of desire.
Blake
He was, especially in season two.
Kashif
Yes, everybody was like, they wanted a piece of Noah. And then we find out later that it's not just because Noah was a bottom. People all thought that. Amen. But what we get later, Wade reveals it when he says, when somebody's talking to Wade and they say, you know.
Blake
It's the kid at the bar, right?
Kashif
And he passed a comment and Wade is like, how you know he ain't been in this?
CLIP: Wade
So do you ever want Mr. Nicholson to fuck you? Who says he doesn't already?
Blake
A growth moment for Wade I just want to throw out there.
Kashif
Yes.
Blake
I just want to stand by my man.
Kashif
Okay. Talk about your man. Talk about his growth. Talk about the arc.
Blake
I could talk about his growth all night.
Kashif
Okay. And based on what he said to T.S. Madison in that interview, when T.S. Madison was being messy and she said, and she said, I want to ask you something that everybody wants to know. How big is it? No, I'm kidding. And then he answered. He was like, it ain't small.
Blake
It ain't small.
Kashif
Yeah. No, Jensen Atwood is fine. He is straight. I do have to tell everybody that.
Blake
Yeah, that was very disappointing.
Kashif
What is it with us and the straight men?
Blake
I don't know.
Kashif
I'm going to put myself in the ring to say you and your love for Jensen Atwood, me and my love for Jeremy Camp. God is working on us. And I want us to let this go. Let this sickness go. And, you know, come into, you know, queer wonder. So, yeah, I think, though, in the world of Noah's Arc, Noah is not looking at the dudes that he's encountering and saying, I bet you he's into white dudes.
Blake
Right.
Kashif
And that is a type of, it's just new. You know, it reflected a reality that I did not know. And I felt excited and hopeful by that.
Blake
Yeah.
Kashif
Okay, we're going to take a quick break and we'll be right back.
Blake
If you live in Middle Tennessee and have been thinking lately about a career shift, may I humbly suggest the field of massage therapy. In a low-touch culture like the U.S., massage therapy can make a powerful difference in people's lives. And trust me, MindBody Institute is the perfect massage school to start the journey of becoming a licensed practitioner. MindBody Institute is a 36-week program with a clinical emphasis. They limit class sizes to ensure an individualized, hands-on learning experience where instructors tailor their lessons to fit your particular learning style. Full disclosure here, I happen to be one of those instructors, so I'm obviously biased, but I absolutely believe that MindBody is one of the best massage educations that you can get in Tennessee and the surrounding area, and that's evidence in our students' MBLEX pass rate. So if you want a massage school that feels like family, head over to mindbody.edu to get more information request a catalog or schedule a tour again that's mindbody.edu I've just got to say when when i was watching Noah's Arc and knowing you i could see bits of you in almost all of these characters but I actually think that like maybe the person that you are most like is maybe Patrick Ian Polk.
Kashif
Oh, that's interesting.
Blake
The man behind all of this. Sometimes I could kind of sense him. And I just feel like y'all would have a great conversation.
Kashif
Yeah. Oh, okay. So first of all, we're putting that out into the universe. Patrick, definitely want to talk to you. But I definitely think that sometimes there were ways I felt like I could sense Patrick's longings coming across. His joys. You know, he had and has friends that are like all of these characters. Yeah, I think I'd love to have a conversation with Patrick. I think that he's a pioneer. And I think there's a way in which our visions seem like they match.
Blake
I'm curious about the way that you would, if you were in charge of making this script and directing these productions, what would you change about them?
Kashif
I would provide probably more backstory. And so I would want to cast like younger Noah, younger Chance. I would want to see more of like their family dynamics, like their relatives. Because we don't see much of that.
CLIP: Noah
Like we don't get like mama coming, you know, daddy coming, whatever. Yeah. And maybe a part of that is to avoid or it's just that's just not the project.
Blake
Yeah.
Kashif
Of this particular.
Blake
I also wondered if part of it was maybe budget.
Kashif
And budget because it takes a lot more to do that. But I would do it where we get to explore those, whether it's like in dreams or in just, we'd find some portal into it. And it would be an artistic memory. I think that's what I would do. And I would probably play a little bit with genre and break the fourth wall.
Blake
You know, this is where absurdist Kashif is coming.
Kashif
Yes.
Blake
A little bit.
Kashif
I mean, I want us to say like, what genre are we in where somebody is like doing a spoken word? And then all of a sudden they're like looking at a particular character and, you know, but, but this, this, it wasn't, of course, the project of this particular series, but that's what I would do. I would, I would have fun with it.
Blake
Yeah.
Kashif
And it would be, it would be a little bit absurd.
Blake
This was also made in 2005. So there would be things that would be updated, you know, if you were making this production these days, right?
Kashif
Yes.
Blake
For instance, especially in the first season, there was a particular episode that was a little dicey concerning trans folks. I have some thoughts about like how the series at large seemed to like talk about monogamy and ethical non-monogamy. And sometimes those conversations felt weird.
Kashif
Yeah. And I think a part of it, if there was anything preachy or teachy or like, you know, sort of felt moral about the series, it would have been that.
Blake
Yeah.
Kashif
That it's like, if you're loose, this is what you get. If you're committed, this is what you get.
Blake
Exactly.
Kashif
But I will say it does reflect the views of a lot of black gay men from that time in terms of like open relationships, you know, non-monogamy.
Blake
Yeah.
Kashif
I know a wealth of Black gay men who came up with Noah's Arc that are not into open relationships at all.
Blake
Yeah.
Kashif
And so it makes sense that that's how they would talk about it.
Blake
Sure.
Kashif
Yeah. Maybe to, I mean, to us today and also to you as a white person watching it, as a white gay, it's sort of like, okay, what's, what is all this? I don't want to put words in your mouth, but.
Blake
Yeah, no. One of the things that I also appreciated about the show is especially this most recent movie, we seem to have a little bit of a dialogue between two generations happening.
Kashif
Yes.
CLIP: Noah
Not necessarily about monogamy, but about gender.
Kashif
Yes.
Blake
Right? When it comes to Alex and his trans daughter.
Kashif
Yeah. And I think it's, if I'm going to offer a critique or if we're going to offer critiques, we should take it, you know, the show's growth as a whole.
Blake
Yes.
Kashif
And I think this is not necessarily to right the wrongs, but like it puts it, the tail ending conversation with the beginning.
Blake
Exactly.
Kashif
And I think that is skill.
Blake
Yes. And it's also, it's good television because I feel like we don't, we've kind of lost that these days.
Kashif
Yeah.
Blake
You know, when you had something that was serialized and it would come on once a week and you had kind of a scheduled viewing experience, then I think a lot of times those showmakers would take input from what their audience was saying and then have a conversation with their audience as they're going. And I do think that Noah's Ark did that well.
Kashif
Yes. I mean, oh, God, if Noah's Ark had stayed on the air all these years. I mean, not at least for a run like One Tree Hill, which by the time you get to the end of One Tree Hill, it feels like an entirely different show because it was on the air from 2003 to 2012.
Blake
Oh, my gosh. I didn't know that.
Kashif
Nine seasons, nine massive seasons. And by the end, you were like, what are y'all writing about?
Blake
Yeah.
Kashif
But I think Noah's Arc, maybe it's best the way that things happen. You know, that there were periods of time where the characters could grow and keep up with the times. And so what we get is a Noah's Arc that's always in conversation with what's happening now.
Blake
Yeah.
Kashif
And I definitely appreciate that. I think the other critique might be, so this is a little bit tricky, that straight men are playing gay men in the show. So, of course, there's Jensen Atwood.
CLIP: Noah
But there's also the guest appearance by B. Raz, who was in B2K.
Kashif
Lil Raz, I think. We'll correct it in the show notes. But there were rumors about him, basically.
Blake
Wait, who did he play?
Kashif
B-Raz played the boy who had found out that he got HIV.
Blake
And puked in the trash can.
Kashif
And puked in the trash can. But he says, I have to tell my boyfriend. So he's playing a gay character. First of all, in that time, that's unheard of. Like a B2K, I mean, they were heartthrobs. You want to talk about the boys that my older sister was obsessed with and her friends?
Blake
Yeah, I remember them.
Kashif
Yeah, with their album Pandemonium. What a girl wants, what a girl needs, what a girl wants, what a girl needs. It's just, oh my God, it was like very sexy. But so to imagine one of those boys playing a gay character in 2006, like on TV. I mean, it was just like unheard of on a gay network. I mean, later there were rumors about his sexuality and he then said, I'm not gay and like denied all of it. But I think that would maybe be a critique, like more, you know, gay actors playing gay roles. But like, it was the times, you know.
Blake
And I don't know if we want to get into it, but in season two, there were a lot of seemingly forced dialogue about straight characters or straight actors playing gay characters like within the show. So I don't know if like that was another way in which the show was responding to maybe some critiques that were happening.
Kashif
I hadn't thought about that. Yeah.
Blake
Because the rapper Baby Gat is supposedly straight, but playing a gay character. And they're talking about how only a serious actor will choose to play a gay character. That's kind of was mentioned several times.
Kashif
But it was also addressing what was happening in Hollywood. I mean, it's in that conversation. I don't remember what year we get Brokeback Mountain.
Blake
2005.
Kashif
2005. And so it feels like then it was in conversation with the times. But it did, I think, wax a bit heavy handed. Even I would say the conversations surrounding HIV, there were times in which it felt like, especially in season one, that it would, it almost felt like it was about to break into like an infomercial.
Blake
Yeah.
Kashif
But again, the project of, you know, Noah's Ark at the beginning, especially, it was to educate people about HIV and AIDS.
Blake
And I think it was successful.
Kashif
It was successful. I definitely think so. I think it was a responsible use of a platform. The other thing that's fascinating is to compare this to Punks, at least how Punks felt like he had more room to be more artistic and less preachy. Like he didn't have to talk about HIV and AIDS, although there's a character in Punks who has HIV. And it's just a fact of the matter, which again is avant-garde. I mean, everybody in all works of that period, in many, it was like, if you have HIV, it's, you know.
Blake
Yeah, you're like actively dying.
Kashif
Actively dying, skeletal.
Blake
Yeah, skeletal, you have lesions
Kashif
And that's part of the storyline. But in a lot of Patrick Ian Polk's works, the people who have HIV, they just have it and they talk about it, but it's not, like they're not dying. We don't get anybody who dies of AIDS, HIV.
Blake
No. So I hear a lot of people who watched Noah's Ark growing up and they talk about it. They mention how they didn't know people who were talking about HIV like that.
Kashif
Yeah. It was, I think, a part of a new wave. Because if you think about like, it's a new millennium. We're coming out of like the 80s.
Blake
Yeah.
Kashif
Our elders died. In the 90s, there were the people who survived and maybe had the AZT and those early medication trials. Some of them did still die. I think in the 2000s, especially the early 2000s, we get a new wave of hope. And I think that Noah's Arc comes about as a part of that wave. This is before a lot of the medications that we have now. But it was a part of like this resurgence of possibility, you know, for just living with HIV. Yeah, it was a part of, I think, a national conversation for queer people. You know, I've been doing a lot of comparison with Patrick Ian Polk's work. The way that Patrick talked about punks and how he was working with Babyface Edmonds and they got a bunch of money together to produce this feature film. And it was absolutely beautiful. And it was the first of its kind. And it was talking about gay life, black gay life. It got accepted to Sundance. And it was this whole moment like, oh my God, it's taking off. And then it was like crickets.
Blake
Yeah.
Kashif
And what has happened for Patrick Ian Polk was that now that film is a cult classic. And so we know that you're sophisticated if you mention punks because we know, okay, you're in the know about, you know, this sort of
Blake
Origin story.
Kashif
Origin story, yes, thank you. But then Patrick Ian Polk later goes on to do Pea Valley and so many other incredible projects. And we know now also that he will create a film adaptation of the Elan Harris trilogy, Invisible Life. And Invisible Life filled a similar gap in the market to Noah's Arc. So we get Noah's Arc as like talking about urban Black gay men on TV, like depicting that. and their very normal lives. Elin Harris starts to write novels in the 90s that cover this urban market for Black gay men. And we just, we didn't have anything like that before. We had already had Baldwin and his, you know, grandiose prose. We had other writers, we had Chester Himes, we had poets, but we didn't necessarily have writers who were talking about ordinary gay life in the 90s and what it was like to deal with DL men, it will be powerful and thought-provoking to see what he does with the Invisible Life series. It is a coming out story because he himself, the protagonist in the novels, figures out that he's gay and he's not quite DL. He kind of is. But we have more sort of mercy on him because we understand his long-running sort of feelings. But he sleeps with many DL men and has relationships with them. You know, one of the characters contracts HIV-AIDS because of a DL man. So knowing that Patrick Ian Polk did the work of talking about HIV-AIDS without moralizing, in a sense, I'm really curious to see what he does with this film adaptation. But I'm going to bring up my laptop because I do have a fun little surprise game for us. And so one of the things I love about Black gay writers, it's in our blood, especially those of us who grew up as church girlies. We're always going to give you a very like biblical title. You know, it's always going to emerge from the Black church, something like that. So this little game is called Elan Harris or James Baldwin.
Blake
Cool.
Kashif
So you're going to guess whose work it is.
Blake
Okay.
Kashif
Okay. So the first one is Abide With Me. Is that Elan Harris or is that James Baldwin?
Blake
Are we talking about like a line in a book or a title?
Kashif
A title. A title of a novel or a...
Blake
Abide With Me.
Kashif
Abide With Me. A title of any of their works.
Blake
Okay. I'm more familiar with Baldwin.
Kashif
Right. So you...
Blake
But I don't recall Abide With Me. Obviously, I know the hymn. So I'm going to guess Elan.
Kashif
That's correct. That's Elan Harris. That's a part of the Invisible Life trilogy.
Blake
Okay.
Kashif
Okay. Evidence of things not seen.
Blake
I'm going to guess Baldwin.
Kashif
Correct. Me and my house.
Blake
Baldwin?
Kashif
That's correct. This too shall pass.
Blake
That sounds very Baldwin, but I don't think you'd put three Baldwins in a row. So I'm going to say Harris.
Kashif
Okay, that's correct. It is Harris. Just above my head.
Blake
Just above my head?
Kashif
Like dangling.
Blake
Yeah. You know. Harris.
Kashif
No, Baldwin. I intentionally said dangling to throw you. Okay, this one you're going to get. Money can't buy me love.
Blake
Harris?
Kashif
Yeah. Could you imagine James Baldwin writing Money Can't Buy Me Love?
Blake
No, I can't.
Kashif
Okay. In my father's house.
Blake
Baldwin.
Kashif
That is Harris.
Blake
Oh.
Kashif
Yes. I Say A Little Prayer.
Blake
Harris.
Kashif
That's correct. Come Out The Wilderness.
Blake
Baldwin.
Kashif
That's correct. Basketball Jones.
Blake
Harris.
Kashif
Could you imagine Baldwin writing something called Basketball Jones? It would be like, I bought a boy in Harlem. And then, you know, it would be like the first chapter would be him like bouncing a ball. Harlem has changed and this long prose maybe. And then you'd get his backstory with his family in the South. And then, I don't know, go back to a slave generation or something. I don't know, anyway. No, that's definitely Harris.
Blake
Basketball Jones. Outside of Giovanni's room.
Kashif
Yes, basketball. Okay. One Day When I Was Lost.
Blake
I'm going to guess Baldwin.
Kashif
That is correct. Just As I Am.
Blake
That also sounds very Baldwin. But I'm going to guess Harris.
Kashif
That's correct. If This World Were Mine. If this world were mine. Harris. That's correct. Okay. I mean, obviously, the order definitely helped a little bit. But also, you know Baldwin works. So, yes.
Blake
But you did the more obscure ones.
Kashif
I did. I tried to pull. I mean, I wasn't going to say Go Tell It On The Mountain.
Blake
Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was the first Baldwin that I ever read, by the way.
Kashif
Go Tell It On The Mountain?
Blake
Yeah.
Kashif
That was the first Baldwin that I read. Wait, when did you read Go Tell It on the Mountain?
Blake
2014?
Kashif
That's really weird. Because I read Go Tell It on the Mountain in 2015.
Blake
It was Ferguson that prompted it for me.
Kashif
Oh, okay. Yeah. I think that was the first book when I was coming out and trying to figure out who I was. And I couldn't rely on scripture because it wasn't enough. But I had heard of this black gay writer who preached and I went and read Go Tell It on the Mountain. And it was like, it preached me into my own arms.
Blake
Yeah.
Kashif
You know?
Blake
Yeah. Anyway, we're going to go on another quick break. Going to listen to some ads. We'll be right back for our Who's Gonna Be There game.
Kashif
The first time a writer told me about The Porch, I thought he was talking about literary people sitting on a veranda with glasses of sweet tea. Turns out, I was only kind of wrong. The Porch is a Nashville-based writers' collective that offers workshops for poets and writers of all levels, readings from high-profile authors, and yes, outdoor literary events. My porch journey started in 2018 with a class called Foundations of Fiction, and I've been part of the community ever since. Whether it's sitting within a few of Kiese Lehmann or toasting to a fellow member's book contract, The Porch keeps me connected. With community programs like Immigrants Write and Write for Good, The Porch is present where it counts in times like these. Financial assistance and scholarships are available to help you meet your writing goals. View workshop offerings and chip away at your writer's block by visiting www.porchtennessee.org or on social media at Porch TN. All right y'all it's time for our game and for those of you who don't know every episode we use a randomizer to give us three names and we have a hypothetical party and we'll decide if we are going to go to this party and just a word that the names are folks that y'all have sent in public figures fictional characters and we the two introverts decide if we're gonna go. Okay so here we go.
Blake
Okay
Kashif
Madonna
Blake
Alright
Kashif
Elmer Fudd
Blake
Okay
Kashif
And our third guest is ronald reagan
Blake
Oh shit okay
Kashif
So are we going to this party. First let me say that um ronald reagan and elmer fudd both seem like the same person. I think because Ronald Reagan would love Donald Trump
Blake
And so would Elmer Fudd
Kashif
But also Elmer Fudd is just like he's just like Americana like he's Americana hyperbolized. He and Ronald Reagan are relatives somehow like they to me are the same person and I'm frightened of both of them Elmer Fudd has benefited somehow from like trickle down economics That's how he's probably gotten all those fucking guns. You know, how does he have all that time to be hunting? What's his job?
Blake
That's true.
Kashif
Okay.
Blake
So he's a welfare queen.
Kashif
He definitely is.
Blake
Yeah. I don't like the energy. Elmer Fudd and Ronald Reagan both. And honestly, I don't know if I would have all that much fun with Madonna either. But she would have poppers.
Kashif
She would have poppers, but we'd have to hold her up.
Blake
That's true.
Kashif
Because she would take one hit of the poppers, the Amsterdam probably. Play and okay and but she would also be the one to walk into the store and say "Do you have poppers?" And not video head cleaner.
CLIP: Noah
She doesn't know
Kashif
She doesn't know yeah. But i feel like she would be like you know and we'd have to hold her up and then it would just be like kind of a nightmare
Blake
Um I just want to know who's hosting this party where these three people get an invite
Kashif
It's some Nashville conservative. It's somewhere in the South and it's someone like i think political.
Blake
Adjacent to Hollywood though.
Kashif
I think it's like Kid Rock.
Blake
It is Kid Rock. This is a Kid Rock party.
Kashif
This is a Kid Rock party.
Blake
And we're not going. I'm not going.
Kashif
I'm not going.
Blake
Definitely not.
Kashif
Absolutely the fuck not. It's a Kid Rock party and Madonna is trying to be cool and she says, Oh, I'm an ally. I'm a gay ally, but you know, we're friends or something. So she's got to go.
Blake
Yeah. She's trying to play both sides.
Kashif
Exactly. Trying to stay relevant, trying to keep them taxes paid. Amen. Elmer Fudd, of course, is going to be there because he's MAGA. And Ronald Reagan, definitely, he's like the Make America Great Again . . .
Blake
OG
Kashif
So he's definitely going to be there. And his wife would probably be there with him. But his wife, okay, her womanhood, would interrupt what Madonna was doing with the drugs. Because remember that Nancy Reagan, with her Just Say No campaign?
CLIP: Nancy Reagan
Say yes to your life. And when it comes to drugs and alcohol, just say no.
Kashif
She would see Madonna with the poppers. Nancy Reagan would rush across the tile floor and you would hear her little pumps and she would try to take the bottle snatch the bottle from Madonna and then get a whiff herself and probably like it
Blake
She's low key, she's a freak
Kashif
She was a freak. She would like it. She would probably like it. And all of a sudden you see she's walking and she's reporting it and she's like what was it like
Blake
Can confirm, my pussy's loose
Kashif
I don't know if my pussy's leaking
CLIP: Nancy Reagan
It's exciting and stimulating and rewarding
Kashif
I don't know girl listen no she would Nancy would Nancy would buy stock in in jungle juice okay she seems more like a jungle juice girly i feel like you know well i mean like a big bottle I'm not here for this jungle juice slander Okay let me let me jungle juice is like now why am i in it That's right I was out here just dilating assholes like why am i in it
Blake
This is none of my business. Don't associate me with Nancy Reagan or Madonna
Kashif
Because jungle juice is like no no why am i here
Blake
You know i just hope that somebody records and i'd be happy to watch the footage later. I just don't care to be there in person
Kashif
I don't care to be to be there in person either just tiktok live i would love some right winger to just like TikTok Live. That's the only time I will advocate for a right winger on TikTok.
Blake
On TikTok Live.
Kashif
Just to go, just fine.
Blake
Just to document the chaos.
Kashif
Yes, and say "we're relevant" and actually we're all laughing at you.
Blake
Yes, yeah.
Kashif
That's it.
Blake
Okay, great.
Kashif
That's all folks.
CLIP: Looney Toons
That's all folks.
Blake
If there's someone you think would really love to hear this episode about Noah's Arc, please feel free to share that with them. Also, we'd love it if you could give us a rate and a follow on your podcast app in order to hear from us.
Kashif
If you want to see our outfits for this episode, follow us on Instagram and TikTok at who's going to be there pod. And if there's a name you think belongs in our name randomizer, you can submit your entry at who's going to be there dot com.
Blake
We also want to give a big thank you to Michael Eads over at We Own This Town for his help with distribution, engineering and all around wisdom.
Kashif
We'll be back in two weeks to talk about dark matter, not dark meat, with Keyshawn Ivory.
Blake
Maybe both.
Kashif
OK, maybe both. I mean, sometimes those things go together. Amen. Keyshawn is an astronomist and many other brilliant things. And we're excited about that conversation. But until then, it is good to meet.
Blake
And it is sad to part.
Kashif
Bye.
Blake
Bye. Didn't Nancy Reagan, she was like known for like giving blowjobs, right?
Kashif
Yeah, she was. She was like the mouth of the White House. She was the mouth of the house.
Blake
Okay.
Kashif
But you know what? It is really, when we talk about social mobility, you can go from sucking dicks to being in the White House. And that, if there's anything great about this country, it's going to be that.
Blake
If you can snatch somebody's soul, it's a first class ticket into the highest office of the land.
Kashif
Into the O-O-O-Val office.
Blake
She put the O in there.
Kashif
She put the O in Oval Office.
Blake
She put the O-O-O